Tongues November 11 2009
Why does the Revival Fellowship preach tongues ‘as a sign’ if Jesus stipulated that no signs would be given except the Resurrection itself? (Matthew 12:38-40, Mark 8:12-13)
Why are there 8 steps to salvation on the Revival Fellowship website if the Bible repeatedly says that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone? (e.g. John 3:16, Romans 3:28-30, Romans 4:5, Romans 5:1, Romans 10:4, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:5-6, Galatians 3:24, Ephesians 2:8-9)
Why are there fifteen salvation accounts in Acts that don’t include references to tongues? (other than the oft-quoted 3 which do) [further reading]
Why are none of the other qualifying signs listed in Mark 16 taken in an essential-every-time way? For example:
- Why aren’t all believers immune to snake bites?
- Why don’t all believers successfully lay hands on the sick?
- Why don’t all believers cast out devils? (What does this even mean?)
- Why aren’t all believers resistant to deadly poison?
Why is tongues treated differently? How is the Revival Fellowship justified in making tongues a universal sign but relegating the other signs to mere possibilities?
Why are there approximately 250 million Christians worldwide who speak in tongues that don’t preach it as a doctrine? Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit (that they supposedly have evidenced by their tongues) shown them the ‘truth’? How could the Spirit be so much ‘weaker’ in these 250 million people than in the approx. 30,000 in the Revival fellowship? How are Revival Fellowship tongue speakers any more enlightened then the other tongue speakers? What is the statistical probability of 250 million tongue-speaking Christians worldwide, being collectively misled by the Spirit, in contrast with the 30,000 in the Revival Fellowship?
Is it reasonable that the God, who will determine the salvation of humanity on whether they spoke in tongues or not, did not state this ‘truth’ more clearly and unequivocally so that people are not misled?
Why do a series of specific scriptures have to be read in a certain order from one translation to validate the Revival Fellowship’s salvation message?
Why is the only scripture that supposedly links tongues with Holy Spirit so hazy? (John 3:8) Why would Jesus only tell one person, at night, in secret and in a nonsensical riddle?
Why did the first people who spoke in tongues in the Bible speak known languages? Why doesn’t this happen anymore?
When did tongues transition from known languages (xenolalia) to unknown languages (glossolalia)? Why did this happen? Why isn’t this explained in the Bible?
Why is the event that happened at Pentecost so different to what happens in the Revival Fellowship?
Why does the Revival Fellowship sit alone in the essential-tongues realm of Chrisitanity?
Why are there are so few people that can ‘really’ understand the Bible to the extent of the Revival Fellowship?
Why are there so many tongue speakers worldwide in all sorts of religious and secular scenarios?
Why do tongues predate Christianity?
Why did Jesus forgo so many opportunities to explain necessity of speaking in tongues in avoiding eternal torture?
Why didn’t the authors of epistles clearly re-iterate the simple requirement that a true believer must speak in tongues, rather than rely on the assumed knowledge of the readers?
Why didn’t the essential-tongues doctrine exist before the 1900s?
If this is because we are in the ‘latter rain’ now – what about the Christians before the latter rain? What does this mean for those who died for the faith or those who wrote, translated and complied the Bible?
Why has speaking in tongues existed prior to Christianity? If one is of God and one is not – how would an unbeliever discern God’s sign? (I Corinthians 14:22)
Why do tongues primarily include phonemes from the language of the speaker? For example, why are English tongues primarily made up of unpatterned reorganizations of the English language? Why is this the pattern in every country?
Why is tongues a proven learned behaviour? (Journal of Abnormal Psychology 1986, Vol. 95, No. 1,21-23 PDF)
Sixty subjects listened to a 60 second sample of tongues (defined to them as pseudolanguage) and then attempted to produce tongues on a 30 second baseline trial. Afterward, half of the subjects received two training sessions that included audio- and videotaped samples of tongues interspersed with opportunities to practice tongues. Also, live modelling of tongues, direct instruction, and encouragement were provided by an experimenter. Both the trained subjects and untreated controls attempted to produce tongues on a 30 second post-test trial. About 20% of subjects exhibited fluent tongues on the baseline trial, and training significantly enhanced fluency. Seventy percent of trained subjects spoke fluent tongues on the post-test. Our findings are more consistent with social learning than with altered state conceptions of tongues.
Why were 20% immediately able to reproduce fluent tongues?
Why were 70% able to speak in tongues after more exposure and practice?
How is ‘practice’ any different to ‘seeking’?
Why are the statistics of this Godless experiment so similar to people who ‘receive’ in the Revival Fellowship?
How will anyone ever be able to distinguish between the two?
How do I know my tongue is ‘of God’ if I repetitiously ‘practiced’ after hearing tongues my whole life (let alone the 60 second samples)?
Why does the Bible condemn repetitious prayer? (Matthew 6:7)
Why were there no seekers meetings in the Bible?
If Jesus was baptised as an example for us and also received the Spirit as an example for us – why didn’t he speak in tongues? If Jesus didn’t ‘need to’ because he was God, why was he baptised?
Why do most new tongues sound like the word they’ve been repeating really fast? E.g. Hallelujah, halla, halla, halla, etc
How do the pastors distinguish between repetitive harla-harla-harla’s and tongues that sound identical?
How could anyone tell the difference?
Why do seekers need to be ‘alleluiaering’ (and very repetitively at that) for God to fill them with the Holy Spirit?
Isn’t that doing the hard-yards for God? How is this in anyway a sign ‘to them that believe not’? (1 Corinthians 14:22)
Why didn’t the disciples harla-harla-harla? Or anyone else in the Bible?
Why does someone have to ‘let go’ of their tongue before the Holy Spirit may gain access?
What is stammering?
Why does no one stammer in the Bible?
How much of the Holy Spirit do you have when stammering?
Why are the phrases below so popular? And what do they mean?
– When I was seeking I felt my tongue starting to change, but it just didn’t quite happen
– We were not sure if I spoke in tongues so the pastor prayed with me to confirm it
– When I was seeking I got tongue tied and had to stop for a while
– After I spoke in tongues it still took me a few weeks to realise what I had
– I got a stammering tongue at first, but after a while it got more fluent
Why are these not addressed in scripture? [further reading]
Why are some tongues received ‘quietly’ without a life transformation and other times no tongues are present but a positive life transformation? Which one is God inspired? Which one is Biblical?
Why does Paul ask whether all speak in tongues rhetorically? (1 Corinthians 14:28-30)
Why does the Revival Fellowship preach this is the context of a ‘meeting’ if Paul also asks if all are apostles? Or prophets – which clearly not all ‘in a meeting’ are apostles or prophets? (1 Cor 14:28-30) Why is the answer an implied ‘no’?
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Why does the Greek word used in these questions imply the answer is ‘no’? (mē)
Why have other scriptures with the same Greek word (mē) been translated as a negative or rhetorical ‘no’? (E.g. Romans 9:14; Luke 22:35; Romans 11:1; Romans 3:5-6)
Why do other translations read, ‘Not all have the gift of healing, do they? Not all speak in other languages, do they? Not all interpret, do they?’ (1 Corinthians 12:30)
Why is the Revival Fellowship alone in this interpretation? Why doesn’t the Strongs concordance (sold in the Vogue bookshop) back up this unique interpretation? Why aren’t there any other published concordances that have the same interpretation?
Why would Paul write to the Corinthian church asking them ‘do all speak in tongues?’ in the same breath as ‘are all prophets?’ Clearly the desired answer to this series of rhetorical questions are all the same. Is it then a yes or a no?
Was the entire Corinthian church prophets? Is it more likely that everyone in the church was all of these things or not all of these things?
Why does Paul distinguish between differing manifestations of the Holy Spirit? (1 Cor 12:7-11)
Why does Paul say, ‘for to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will’? (1 Corinthains 12:7-11)
Why doesn’t the Revival Fellowship mandate other signs that follow believers in the Bible? E.g. boldness, prophesy, etc
Why haven’t linguists found any identifiable semantics, syntax, or morphology in tongues?
Why did Luke, when preaching ‘repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ’ stipulate he had ‘not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God‘? (Acts 20:21-27) Why was there no mention of tongues?
Why does Ephesians 1:13 say the Holy Spirit the seal given after belief? Why aren’t tongues mentioned at all?
Why does Paul write that, ‘Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes’? (Romans 10:4)
Further reading:
Glossolalia as Learned Behavior: An Experimental Demonstration (PDF)
Why Tongues Can’t be the Definitive Sign
Speaking in Tongues
A study on Glossolalia as language
This website clearly demonstrates how a church can manipulate scripture to suit them.
Like or Dislike:
2 
5
Grace, which is Jesus’s meritorious deed (precious blood), is enough for our salvation. The thief at the cross was saved (went to the paradise with Jesus) at the time when the Holy Spirit dwelt in nobody. It is because Jesus told his desciple that he could sent another helper after he ascended to heaven, which means that the Holy Spirit was not residing in people even though prophets like Isaiah were governmed by the Holy Spirit so that he did miraculous things.
Therefore, getting the holy spirit for one’s belief being confirmed by it shoud not be denied. However, getting the holy spirit is not the condition of salvation. If so, we need to accept another mediator for salvation except for Jesus.
Like or Dislike:
3 
4
Why would the God of the Old Testament – who didn’t like anybody else to get in on the act – suddenly feel the need to bring in Jesus or the Holy Spirit to help him communicate a bit better with his creation. It doesn’t sound very in character, and what about that bit about being “the same Yesterday, Today and Forever”?
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Why did Jesus come to the earth? Suddenly? No. As planned? Yes.
First of all, not as second, Jesus came to eradicate the devil’s work. (1John 3:8). To save the mandkind from the sins is the second or additional (John 3:16).
The reasons are as follows. (even though I am not indicating chapters and verses, these are all from the Bible)
The devil rebelled against the God in God’s heaven so that he was expelled with 1/3 of angels. Therefore, only the second day of the 6-day creation is the day when God is not said to be happy as the second day is the day when God created the universe into which he put the corrupted devil and following angels. When you have a look at the bible, God was happy for the other five days. God did not want to execute the corrupted devil right away as he is righteous and he wanted to take official measures so that He sent Jesus to fullfill his will. That is why Jesus asked the Father that the Father’s will be realized.
Also, Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is inside you when you expel demons with the Holy Spirit. Demons are followers of the Devil. Likewise, removing the works of the Devil is understood as having the kingdom of heaven in you.
Throughout realization of this first purpose, the eradicatoin of the Devil’s work, God has a pity on the mankind as he used the mankind as getting Jesus as flesh in this world. Therefore, he is giving a chance to be saved. Otherwise, he could have saved all the mankind. However, the God who loves his name wants to save only the people who are his name as the savier. What is his name? Jesus. You can find how the Lord’s prayer starts (Holiness to your name…). Most of christians who are obsessed with hamanism think that the only and first reason of Jesus coming to this world is that the God wants to save us.
Thus, your wondering about why the God sent Jesus suddenly and Holy Spirit suddently is based on humanism, I reckon. However, the Bible is clearly saying that all the stories and episodes are parable or shades of things to come, which is Jesus. Therefore, the God did not send Jesus unexpectedly. It was planned from the beginning.
As stated, Jesus saved people from their sins. Therefore, people who believe in the name, Jesus, are saved from their sins. So, the Holy Spirit has been sent to these people because the Spirit will be testifying for the name Jesus, in spirits of saved people.
Saying in another way, God was invisible and ambigous in the old testaments. This god came to us as a son of man in the world where we lived. Now, this god is living and praying for us inside us. How blessed we are. Hence, people with the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit can deliver the name to people outside as the grace is so big that they cannot hold it to other people. This is what God wants from us in thie new testaments. That is why the Holy Spirit is still coming from the Father.
Like or Dislike:
1 
4
I had been a Lutheran all my life. I prayed, gave my tithes and tried to live a holy life, but all was in vain. I did not see any fruits of going to a church, my prayers were not answered, I tried to be holy but I could not, and I did not see miracles, wonders and signs to prove to me that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob existed (I am a Gentile by birth).
However, due to personal problems I was invited by a friend to the Papua New Guinea Revival Centers one Sunday just to observe. However, I was baptised that same day and for the last few years I have been worshipping with the Revival Centers of Papua New Guinea. Today, I have seen miracles, wonders and signs and I truly believe that there is a God. I also believe that it is through the Holy Spirit only can we get our salvation and no other way as you proclaim. I have seen people with HIV Aids and other incurable diseases cured and I have seen alcoholics and drug addicts kick their bad habits and live good and honest lives in the Revival Fellowship.
As a result of miracles, wonders and signs in the Revival Fellowship in Papua New Guinea, 100s of people are being baptised in the Holy Spirit every week in Papua New Guinea. And the church has grown from 9 people 27 years ago to some 80 000 people today, and is the fastest growing church in Papua New Guinea.
If the Revival Fellowship’s Salvation steps have offended you, I am sorry. But that is what we believe in and will not change it. But one must remember that speaking against the Holy Spirit is an unforgiveable sin (Mark 3: 29; Mathew 12: 31 – 32). Also, you should read John 3: 3 – 5 to understand what Salvation really is – it says that one must be born again of the water and Holy Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. Period.
Like or Dislike:
11 
5
I guess a nonsensical doctrine, documented in contradictory book, within a schismatic religion, worshiping an invisible God is just too appealing.
Before reciting the same routine scriptures, did you take the time to read the page you commented on? Turns out I’m quoting scripture too. Weird huh?
Here are two more: Matthew 12:38-40 and Mark 8:12-13. Here Jesus stipulates that no signs would be given except the Resurrection itself. Yet the Revival Fellowship insist otherwise.
Here’s another one: A time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 (NLT) Turns out people have always heard what they wanted to hear.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
I dont normally take too much time replying to people who leave the Revival Fellowship in disgruntled state. I do want at this stage like to say that I can, from personal experience, completely agree with Nalau Bingeding’s piece, that was written a little earlier on this page. I personally experienced several healings and other miracles and know of many other healings and other miracles taking place all over the world.
In response to the previous text; God may perhaps not physically be seen, but so it is for the wind, yet, anyone can see it’s power when the wind does it’s thing. So also for God. Ten years ago was terribly skeptical about anything religious that I had encountered. That changed the day I received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. From a paranoid skeptic, addicted to drugs and depressed, I experienced an instant change. I instantly had a clear mind, for the first time since years. From day one to day two, the drug addiction of many years was gone as was my terribly foul mouth and temper. This change continued from then till present day; as written in the bible.
When seeing these things happening as written in the bible, who then can deny it?
And finally, to ‘accept Jesus’ really means to agree to whatever He tells you to do. That includes (John 3:5) “Truly, Truly, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”.
His words concerning the salvation message are clear as a whistle, because He loves us. We got to do what He says, if we love Him.
Like or Dislike:
9 
3
To disagree with principles and teachings by a religious organization does not amount to disregarding God or the Word of God. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ. I have my own beliefs which unfortunately, do not conform with any major Christrian church, though I consider myself a Christian.
Fellowship to me amounts to a gathering of 2 or 3 sharing the word. I believe as humans we are prone to error and I believe also many scriptures of the Bible have been lost in translation.
So I try not to take the messages from the Bible as they are written. I try to get the wholesomeness of the message not the words as they are written. I try to gather the value they depict and the direction.
Speaking in tongues is the one aspect that has kept me away from many churches because in every church the tongues all sound the same.
I’m no expert of the Bible but my humble memory and understanding tells me that when it happened in Acts, these were tongues of different lands which other people could understand. I’d like to travel to Russia and meet someone who spoke in French though the had no understanding of French, and I’d be honored to translate cos I do speak French.
I believe like any other gift of the spirit it is not for everyone…and I do believe there have been, there are, or there will be people with such a gift…so I believe that I as a Christian can benefit from the impact or touch of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues or needing to, just as I can without being a Prophet because it is a gift.
On Salvation, many verses specify different requirements, some more extended than others. In some references, believing Jesus is personal Lord and Saviour is enough, so the 2 minute prayer and confession is enough….to others, you need baptism of water and of spirt in addition to that….at the end of the day, it boils down to the emphasis of the Church leadership.
But the Bible clearly says that the responsibility is on us as individuals to pray and find the truth, not necessarily with what you hear…because of cause, many teachings are false either intentionally or unintentionally…
Anyway, may we all find peace whatever the path we choose.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
God bless you all. We all need to seek God on trebling knees and with fear. Take time each day to search the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is real and is at work during this end times. It is very dangerous to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Yield yourself to God completely and He will give you his wonderful life giving Spirit…the Holy Ghost! Take note: The things of the Spirit seem foolish to the learned of this world.
God bless!
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
jesus has done his work and was completed at calvary when he said it is done. he died and was buried, after 3days he rose to life and went to meet his decsiples. he was about to ascend to heaven when he said to his decsiples, i will send you a helper to come and give you strength so that you will carry out my work through out the whole world; you will be given the power to perfom miracles and wonders.. at this end times we need the holy spirit through the baptism to strenthen us and will help us to avoid doing sinful things.. holy spirit is the one that jesus has promised to give us. he said he will pour out the holy spirit in the last days and it is fulfilling……
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
They learn in the revival fellowship not to base your believe on the information of the scriptures but on experience. This is a dangerous thing to say.
1john4:1: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
In the fellowship they have a lot of strange rules and regulations which are in my opinion unscriptual. Personally i know some people who live in fear because they don’t want to be expelled from the group for various reasons.
1john4:18:”There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”
You can know them for their fruits and if you watch closely you will notice bad fruits (mat7:16), they have lack of love (1cor13) and condemn other Cristians as not being saved (mat7:1) (mat12:33 and more)
They don’t want to coöperate with other fellowships thus denying the body of Christ. (rom12)
They condemn the celebration of certain Christian holydays, like Christmas, eastern and so on (kol2:16)
They walk the “broad way” i think (mat7:13-23) by stating that the gospel is really “simple” and you need to believe based on experience rather than information (of the bible). mat7:22-23:”22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?, 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
When they expell members out of their fellowship they don’t follow the scriptures. There are certain rules to this which they don’t follow.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
one thing by the way, maybe you could comment on this one:
romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
This is about praying in tongues, imo praying in tongues IS an essential part of praying because your praying to the will of God through the Holy Spirit.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Hi Anonymous,
IMO Romans 8:26 cannot be about praying or speaking in tongues, since it states that the Spirit’s groanings “cannot be uttered”. I.e this isn’t referring to any audible sounds which may or may not proceed out of the mouth of a believer in any uttered form.
JP
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Hi Anonymous,
Like JP I cannot see how “groanings that cannot be uttered” can be translated into speaking in tongues.
In the Amplified Bible, from which Revivalist leaders often quote, Romans 8 : 26 reads as follows:-
“So too the (Holy) Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness, for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.”
I’ll also quote this verse from the Young’s Literal Translation.
” And, in like manner also the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for what we may pray for as it behoveth [us] we have not known but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable.”
IMO groanings unutterable doesn’t equal speaking in tongues.
Revivalists have a penchant for turning everything they possibly can into evidence to support tongues, thereby making the tongues doctrine the crucial element in admittance to communion in their fellowship. They then become suitably different so as to be set apart from other churches.
Perhaps there’s an underlying insecurity there.
Also, comparing the KJV wording with the two versions I have used above reveals a glaring error in “the Spirit itself” as used in KJV. Almost all other versions refer to the person of the Holy Spirit “the Spirit Himself/himself” as respectfully should be the case.
EV
Like or Dislike:
1 
0