Why I left the
Revival Fellowship

Dear Michael Angrave,

If you concede that the text is fallacious, upon what premise do you still hold to Yawheh? Or his “son”?

Not that I don’t respect your comments, they sound quite well thought out :-)

Kind Regards, Bill Hastings

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My dear Jordan –

I have been reading your insightful response several times to allow your thoughts to percolate and swim around inside my head. I wanted to sift carefully your reactions and inevitable and knowing questions. That is not a criticism because your questions are all the right ones. However my answers and thoughts may be far from satisfactory but as you will perceive that is entirely predictable and consistent with my ever active and searching frame of mind.

I would like to think that the words that follow will make some kind of cogent sense. But… I strongly suspect that my words and thoughts will wrestle both with my vigorous and eager fingers on this keyboard, my mind and tongue. There are no easy answers as I learnt decades ago and we all need constant reminders of this eternal truth. The creator, in whom I hasten to add, I firmly believe, is like the unexpected joker in a pack of cards. Often to me Jordan – he is totally inscrutable and difficult to understand. And yes I have even cursed him loudly and what’s more asked: Where are you because I cannot find you? – in moments of profound despair and endless disappointment. I have indulged often, more often than I care to reflect, and railed against him – cursing him for his lack of personal attention. Has he been listening or did I once again miss that voice and register? Has he left me all alone? – it often seems so. Was this style of spiritual management intentional – a firm caveat – to push away the dry humourless intellectuals – the Gnostics?

The creator is either in my pain and struggles or nowhere! Do I dimly glimpse his presence or has he been like a stranger I seek but forever just out of reach dimly glimpsing the heels as he swiftly moves away around the corner? Or behind a door that has just closed? As I sit down in a small bar, to have a drink of coffee or something stronger and wonder – he has just left? Damn again! – I have missed him. Was he lurking between the different circles of confusion in my varifocals? Is my timing eternally malfunctioning? Was my aperture too closed therefore no depth of field? Forgive the photographic metaphors – I am obsessed by photography and many other things.

There are many varieties of so-called religious experiences as William James wrote about so eloquently. Would I have numbered amongst the scoffers at the death of Jesus? Hurled abuse – satirised him – I hope not. But one thing has always affected me – when God removed his spirit from Jesus and he cried out – Why hast thou forsaken me? – was that worse than physical torture and pain? Is that true hell – separation from God? Here lies a profound concept beyond me to understand? Is the fall of man simply a metaphor for all of us to leave childhood and enter screaming into some form of strenuous adulthood? Is the idea of original sin totally an Augustinian concept and nowhere to be found in Genesis? It isn’t there in the account! Is that what the bible teaches? – I am unsure. Or have we got it all wrong as usual? Are we encouraged and intended to live with guilt? I don’t believe so. Guilt is entirely unproductive and a cul-de-sac.

During the mid-to-late 1960’s, I was painfully young, far too innocent and perhaps needing a man waving a red flag warning of my approach! During this period, science had been handed the burden of proof and the pendulum had swung away from fundamentalist thoughts, preachers holding forth, six feet above contradiction, from their lofty pulpits! The philosophical balance was leaning away from Biblical exegesis to solid scientific knowledge. As usual the flood gates opened and if it was scientific then it bore the stamp of approval and truth. What a fallacy that turned out to be. Was such science-speak just another orthodoxy? But nevertheless it was an important and necessary step in order to fill the void produced from a potent absence of equilibrium. It ushered in another form of bias equal if not more than during the middle-ages from the bastion of Roman Catholic shot-gun salvation – the corrupt powerhouse of belief. It may be already patently obvious that I am not a joiner – and alarm bells ring internally with a fierce intensity when someone attempts to draw me into that prison-like containment. I deeply mistrust organisations of all colours and creeds. Belief can be subject to the marketeers and advertisers just like any other product.

A book called Honest to God was setting people’s minds moving, pushing sluggish conventional mind-set into action, although today such a treatise would be considered as tame as a spinster’s parrot! John A T Robinson, the author, began by informing us that God was not up in the sky in some cosseted and aloof position but among us and there he would firmly stay. It shocked many traditional and predictable people – how foolishly obvious that concept seems now but then I have many years behind me than I have in front – a very sobering thought but often a comforting one because I now know what I don’t want rather than what I want.

During that period I was privileged to meet with several eminent scientists all at the top of their intellectual powers but also very aware of being humble also. A very difficult equation to attain. I was the lowest form of life – a research student and this induced in me a feeling, like the dog, for any scraps from the table that might fall in my direction. And when those crumbs fell towards me, would I realise their value? One thing was certain even if I didn’t understand fully, I knew that they were onto something important.

You ask perceptively if I have ever heard the voice of God? I must confess and say no. But has he spoken to me but alas I was not listening? Or worse, failed to recognise his voice at all. The only significant moment for me was when I was around 12 years old: rising from my bed, making my way down the stairs, which creaked and then to silently make my way out into the garden. I entered the garden, freezing air all around my thin body – with Orion blazing in the southern sky – a constellation denied to you in your location. While gazing at M42 – the horse head nebula, I longed for a space ship to appear from the sky, a door to open and a beckoning stranger to usher me aboard. I would have disappeared without trace and no hesitation. Remember all this was long before Steven Spielberg or Gene Roddenberry films. When Star Trek finally appeared on the black and white television in my home, I can still remember the very first episode. It was screened on ITV – the first commercial channel in England. For me this programme was what I had always dreamt of and an all important frontier and threshold had been crossed. Was this a kind of spiritual experience, my desire to leave the world and travel beyond the confines of earthly life?

When John the Baptist performed the ritual on Christ – was there a literal voice from God or was this some form of imaginary embroidery added by the writer of the Gospel? And why, in the original gospel of John, was their no account of the woman taken in adultery – it appeared only in later texts? These sort of unanswerable questions are legion as you must be very aware?

The whole subject of faith and reason was presented to me in a very clear manner and it set me thinking deeply about what I believed. Professor Fred Hoyle was making scientific headlines with his Big bang theory – about which much controversy remains today – that many believed was in line with Biblical revelation. I suspect most people have forgotten him – I was enthralled by him and he had a similar effect upon me as did Laurence Olivier. Both men inspired me in different directions but I was more than aware that I could never dream of even vaguely aspiring to such lofty people.

I began to read Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle also Charles Darwin who, at that time, was just as controversial as he is now if not more so. I devoured books by Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, Descartes and all the contemporary philosophers who made me realise with effortless ease how little I knew about anything. I was woefully ignorant and it seems to me, even now as I write these words, that I need several lifetimes to learn anything of significance at all? One book I picked up in the school library, when I was a very pale 16 year old, had the intriguing title Being and Nothingness – a title that struck me with the force of a lightning bolt but unlike Martin Luther’s. Could I even, for a microsecond, comprehend such a concept? So the question I had to ask myself was how to acquire the right kind of knowledge that would lead to some understanding of the world – the cosmos and the people around me? What a task and I was more than a little aware of my puny brain.

Forgive me but please consider this as an overture to my thoughts! I don’t want or desire that we become involved in intellectual sabre rattling! After all most of the intellectuals of Christ’s day wanted him dead – he was just another trouble maker and wog to be crucified!

Michael Angrave
michael.angrave@gmail.com

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In 1969 I was sent to Vietnam as an Army Engineer and had the job of driving a bulldozer through minefields to allow the troops in to fight so I became the Primary target. Not knowing if God was real I had to call on someone for help as I was one very scared kid. It was no fun going to get them out of the minefield after someone had trodden on one and I was only 20 years old. I saw the bulldozer i replaced get blown up so i made a bargain with God that if He got me out of this i would find Him just to say thank you. Years later I did find Him at the Revival Fellowship to say thank you. Two weeks after coming to the Revival Fellowship I was flying a plane towards Kangaroo Island and the motor failed when i was over Rapid Bay and there was nowhere to land. After I had set up the plane for a crash landing the plane skidded in this tiny paddock not much bigger than a large house block. I sat staring at this fence and I said to myself “How did I do that ” and this voice boomed out “You did not do that John I did” Well at just a baby Christian of two weeks i thought that it must be normal and I gave the whole testimony the following Sunday and was told not to mention that side of thing again. Twenty three years passed and in all that time I never heard God’s Voice and I thought that there must be something wrong with me and I was not getting anything out of the meetings so i left and studied the Bible for myself to find out what i was missing. Six months later at 4:30 in the morning i was woken by a voice that said “Get out of bed and read the Commandments” I had read them many times and knew they were in Exodus 20. Seeing I was not going to get any sleep until I complied i read them and on my way back to bed was told “Read them again” This time I read Exodus 19,20 and 21 then started back to bed again. The voice said again “Read them again” so i read verse by verse and did not go on to the next until i was sure i understood it. At the end of Exodus 19 I got it, no stone tablets, God spoke to everyone so at that I got the point He wanted to talk to me! From then I was full of questions and got the answers that I wanted. Let me give you a Bible explanation. All the people of Israel heard God speak at the mountain and asked that He spoke to them no more so God set up this priesthood and only the High Priest went into this place called the Holiest of all to hear God speak once a year(Exodus25:22) In the New Testament we are encouraged to go to this place and hear God talk for ourselves (Hebrews 10:19) but sadly very few do. If we did God Himself would show us what needs to be done to see someone healed then we would know He is real. I once took a young man overseas with me to see for himself what God can do and he took 83 before and after photos of people healed. When he showed those photos he was asked to leave the church. Why? You know him. I have about 8 hours of video footage of people being healed if you are interested and just recently i went to Brisbane and was invited to a birthday party at which was a autistic boy who could not talk or eat (had a tube in his nose for 6 years) He was instantly healed and wants to write a book about what it was like growing up as a Autistic boy. I would love to send you a copy of the letters that he wrote to his doctor. Well I have said enough for you to ponder John

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This is a reply to some comments made @John Jury and maybe for others asking similar questions towards the author of this site.

I for one have seen many things, as John Jury has. I have seen “Light” and “darkness”. For us to be able to deny these forces it is stupid because although science cannot understand it and although generations and generations of philosiphers can only call God or any of these forces “unknowable at best” (your words), what does that say to you? God is not something we are supposed to understand. The idea of a God still after all my years being a christian baffles my mind. The fact that he has always been and that he has given all humans a chance to be with him for eternity blows my mind.

I find it amazing that someone such as yourself has come to these conclusions. In saying that also I am not entirely surprised though, and I do not contradict myself in saying this because when I first heard about your site and checked it out, I was shocked that someone I know thinks like this after years of being in RF. All I can say about how you have conjured up all these theories and questions of yours, over so many years, is that “without faith it is impossible to please him”… you know that to be a scripture of the Bible and you probably know where it is. If not :

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And if you know this then you would also know this :

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I accept that you have chosen your way or direction in life. I might not like your site but in the broader scheme of things it doesnt affect me… it affects all those who are close around you who are still “christian”. Putting stumbling blocks before other people is not wise for all you are doing is becoming, something that you stated God is not, an author of confusion for other peoples lives who still believe there is a God but are looking for answers. I have been confused before about what I believe, which is why I also left the Revival Fellowship and I was torn apart emotionally by friends who I had for all of my life (yes I grew up in the same church as you, same city and fellowship infact). The thing is these “friends” I had there didnt know any better, it was what they were taught to do, and also what I was taught to do, but never really did. I have always had parents who have brought me up to believe that Gods church is greater than just the Revival Fellowship and that forgiveness is crucial, for this is one of Jesus’ main teachings in the scriptures! Since leaving I have gone on to discover many different characteristics of God and his nature. What John Jury said about God talking to him I do believe. It has happened to me and also in the first church… the apostle Paul was converted by Jesus himself when he was on the road to catch “christians” to bring them back to… you know the story. If that happened to Paul it can happen to anyone because ALL are called. Everyone has a different calling, whether it be great or small in our own minds, it is all the same to God. Every calling is great! For we are all chosen and picked for HIS kingdom. Even though I say all this I do feel that it will fall on deaf ears, but I pray that you atleast see some reasoning as to why I still believe there is a God. Many many mnay things have been misquoted from people from RF and they will continue to be as they do not live in the grace and freedom that Christ came to give us. Nobody could fulfill the old covenant of God which is why he had to come in the first place. Even though all of the laws in the old testament were not obeyed by all those within that time, God was still gracious to them because not all were punished. Grace = mercy = love = compassion… how you cannot see the Love of God in the Bible is really astounding. The circumstances of which you speak about where people were either struck down or people were killed by animals, were all about obeying. Elijah was mocked by children in one of these circumstances and the children were torn to pieces by a bear! Why? Elijah was the only prophet in the land of Israel at the time and being a prophet, his words were to be heard by all the people because he was an ambassador for God. The people or in this case the children disobeyed and made fun of him so made fun of God, so they were torn to shreds by a bear! Full on I know but this was the law of Gods people back then. In pointing these things out though you forget all the times… the COUNTLESS times that God came to the rescue for the children of Israel. He delievered them from annihilation so many times and for what reason when all they did was disobey him? because he loved them and his promises were for them. Dont even get me started on his promises. They have been a safety net for me, everytime I have been in trouble in my life… while I have been in darkness or in financial ruin.

I dont know what state of mind you are at with accepting anything from anyone as far as advice is concerned on your walk with God, but even though you have put him to the side, have you thought that maybe he isn’t finished with you yet? Hebrews 11:6 is the key for you. If I didnt have any faith in all the times I have been lost and broken hearted (which are many, and all by those from RF) then I would have ended my life several years ago. Sorry to preach I just had all this stuff on my heart to say, not because I’m trying to reconvert you to christianity, thats something I cant do… thats your choice, but because I know inside you still have Gods spirit living there. You are still my brother and I can honestly say that I will continue to love you as a brother within my heart for the rest of my days on this earth. A scripture for myself comes to mind and is something that I believe ALL christians can learn from. Matthew 25:34-45. Anyway I’ll leave you with the words to a song that you would know from your days at RF :

God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good.

You’ll maybe know who I am from the email address I leave behind. God bless mate

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Michael Angrave & Jordan,

I suppose when I look at things closer and closer, within the scriptures and within my own desires of my heart that I do have a lot of questions. But in saying that I don’t think they are the same questions that you want me to be asking. I know that a lot of intellects will always look forward to a challenge and see if they can answer the questions, to the best of their ability, to help, crush or to confuse the questioner who they may either view as a person genuinely looking for answers or someone who is their intellectual adversary. The problem that I have with people of the latter, those who want to confuse and to crush, is why do they have to do that?

My point I am trying to make is, yes there is a lot of confusion in this world, why do some individuals push their views and beliefs on others to the point that it makes the onlooker or listener question everything in their life and send them on a spiral so terrifying that it questions everything of who they are and who they have been as a person all their life. This type of question answering is not beneficial to anybody but… lets face it, is only satisfactory to the person who answers the question… the person who is the confuser. The confused person will then go away and think about these things with not only more questions but so many questions that they don’t know what to do with themselves.

I touched on faith in my last posting (on June 23rd under the flag of ‘anonymous’) and still haven’t received any answer back, so I’m a bit disappointed that no “answer” has been directed from anyone. The point I’m trying to make and probably failing miserably is, when there are so many questions in your life and then you think you’ve found the answers, then somebody smashes it all again with an intellectual debate which twists words and concepts like no other… where do you go? All I can say is God is not an author of confusion. I know this within my heart as if it has been burned into my flesh that God is not just an all powerful being and omnipotent as WILTRF has questioned. He is also all of the other things that you have questioned. He is an all loving God, he is a gracious God, compassionate and all the other various things which you have questioned and put a negative persona over. God is a good God and will continue to be a good God until the end of humanity as we know it to be.

I know I’m stirring up a lot of intellects by saying these things but here is the one thing that you all lack and until you gain it you will not understand any of the words which are written in the Holy Book (Holy Bible). Faith!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

While we’re on the topic also do you know what grace is? Here’s the difference in grace and mercy.

Mercy – A man of African decent is fighting for his life and goes to the shops and finds a white who looks to be rich. He then procedes to kidnap her, take her possessions, rapes her and brutally murders her. His reasoning for raping and murdering this girl is because he is upset that there is a difference between his upbringing and hers. So jealousy overtakes him to commit this disgusting crime. The parents of this girl then say to the courts after he’s been caught and stands in trial “we don’t charge him for any of the things hes done to our daughter”. Then these heartbroken parents go on their way and let the justice system deal with him as it sees fit, according to the laws of the land.

Grace – The same man when he stands in court is not only forgiven by the grieving parents but is then represented by them. They fight for his life imprisonment charges and when they succeed in his freedom they mentor him and put him in charge of one of their many businesses that they own. He then becomes a son to them and becomes a successful businessman.

Pretty insane differences there and with an amazing outcome. True story by the way…

Then as you state Jordan in the “Tongues” section of your site, you ask a very good and simple question that our past pastors could not answer with concrete answers.

“Why are none of the other qualifying signs listed in Mark 16 taken in an essential-every-time way?”

They put God inside a box… God doesn’t work within a box that man creates for him, because he created the Heavens and the Earth, the animals and land which we see and hear all around us. When God is put in a box in one place (RF), he will manifest himself in another place. Do you honestly think that God had “One True Church” on the face of the planet?… I mean we’re talking about 7 continents, although Antarctica isn’t inhabited by humans that often. Through those continents there are over 6 and a half billion people and he only worked in little old Adelaide with a church of 2,000 people? There are churches in America and Australia that have 20,000 people per SERVICE! I mean that little number of 2,000 doesn’t seem so important now. The scriptures say :

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.

All flesh Jordan… not just the itty bitty church in Adelaide of 2,000 people and the other small churches under the same banner all around the globe. I’m not saying that what they preach can’t be used by God though, because many peoples lives have obviously changed for the better through God in Revival Fellowship. God is an eternal God and forever will be… thats what eternal means… ok sorry to state that obvious fact, but you are forgetting some of the most obvious answers and general facts because you have confused yourself with all these questions and intellectual debates about who and what God is. I also mentioned in my last letter that many of the people in RF misquote the bible. This is true but in your questions and the scriptures you have put with them you have forgotten the one thing that we were also taught. Read the whole chapter if necessary to get things in perspective so you can understand what those verses are saying.You questioned john Jury and his encounter with the creator just after he had a very near fatal plane crash. God spoke to him and you put God in a box because of all the teaching that you had received since you were a child (the same teaching I received!), that said “God doesn’t talk to individuals, all individuals are the same”, and where does it say in the scriptures that God only talks to his people and his church through the spiritual gifts? I can’t find any place! Yes we are all the same but it is man who puts himself above another. It happened in Exodus with Pharoah putting the children of Israel to work and making them build him cities… not just statues but whole entire cities! Man put himself above other men and used them to his ability but it also says in Exodus :

Exodus 2:23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage.
24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged [them].

He remembered the covenant that he had made and honored it. So we’ve established that hes an honorable God so why wouldn’t he honor us with his own promises to us? Because of our belief or our unbelief. They are the same thing…. you either believe or you don’t believe but in essence that belief of you not believing becomes a belief that he cannot honor in his promises. The question is why? Thats a question I cannot answer for you because you know where your heart is at, not me… I cannot judge because as you know, the scriptures say I’m not allowed to or supposed to. You know why it says that? Because if you judge someone you are putting yourself above that person, maybe by that judgment you are putting yourself in a higher state in society, business, morals, finance or anything to do with elevating yourself. Judgement when it comes to the law is a different matter altogether because God states that we are to live by the laws of the land. And while we’re on judgement… God is a righteous judge. I’m not afraid of his judgement because I know it will be just and fair.

There is so much more that I could say but the post is getting a bit long. If you have any questions then you know where to find me and know how to get in touch with me. I would be happy to sit down with you brother, over a coffee, or 2 or 3 or 4 and go through the scriptures with you and answer all these questions that you have. The answers are all there, if you don’t put God in a box. Something we can never do, because he is omnipotent and eternal.

Kindest regards,

Aaron Rudduck

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Thanks Michael for your kind words of advice at the end of your last post. I don’t mock when I say that either. To have any form of genuine advice these days and from a stranger, I believe it is to be valued.

I do agree with you that God did leave organised religion… he left it right from the early church when people tried to bring their own ideas within the church. This is purely the reason why he sent people such as Elijah, Joel and Isaiah in the old testament and then Jesus to establish something else… then after him Paul, to try to keep them on track and looking at their one goal instead of bringing their own bitterness and desires to the table and sharing it amongst the throngs. I honestly believe that God is not an author of confusion, but even though man gets confused, his wisdom is always there to set people on the “straight and narrow” so to speak.

There will be many obstacles on the path and your feet do get scratched at and hit with whatever people can find to trip you up… sadly even from amongst the “Christian” world as you have seen here on Jordan’s sight. The people from “The Revival Fellowship” (not all but mainly the leadership) have all lost their first love, which I believe is the one and pure simple reason why Jesus was sent to the cross for us. The fact that they can no longer see this truth is quite astounding. But in saying that, God is not finished with that place yet. I will no longer be apart of it and quite obviously Jordan won’t be either, but that doesn’t mean God will ever give up. He never leaves us or forsakes us and will always come back for the one lost one, even when the 99 are ok.

One of the first acts of Gods compassion on mankind after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” was, he clothed them in animal skins so they wouldn’t be cold. They just cursed all of mankind and then he has compassion on them. They found out what nakedness was, they then try to hide themselves from God because they heard him in the garden and God knew what they had done, so he clothed them properly… What sort of compassionate God is that… He walked and talked with them in the garden, but even after they deliberately disobeyed him, he has compassion and clothes them. Fashion and compassion started there haha! I don’t get why God didn’t just start all over again, but then I do… he saw us in the future and wanted to give us the chance to have an eternal relationship with him.

To me Michael this is what its all about. I’m not searching for answers anymore. I will always be open to what God and his spirit have to teach me, for this is what I believe God will continue to do. I have found my Saviour and he has saved me many times from my own stupidness… many times. His love and compassion endures forever and always will. I will never turn my back on my God, for he didn’t turn his back on me when I thought he was trash after all the wrong things that had been done and said to me inside the Christian world. I came out of that organised religion with a lot of bitterness towards him and others, then after he showed me his grace and his freedom, which the scriptures talk so much about, but I was never taught it as a child, I became a new person. One thing I know is that I wouldn’t change a single thing about my life even if I was given the keys to be able to do so. I wouldn’t be the person who I am today and I wouldn’t know my God the way I do today if I didn’t go through the heart ache of losing all my friends from ostracisation and blatant ignorance.

There one person who was brokenhearted and cast out more than anyone and he was a King. King David in the scriptures is someone who I wish I could be like and ask God to change me to often. I love that he was a brokenhearted man, like myself but one that showed such strength in that heart ache. He had compassion on his enemies and even sat in sack cloth and ashes and prayed whilst his enemy was sick… thats hardcore! Not that I wish to do that but I want my heart to be in the same place like that… that I can have compassion on my enemies and treat them as my friends. I pray that God sees this and knows how hungry I am for his righteousness.

Call me crazy, but I just have a hunger and thirst to serve my God and my King. Matthew 5:6 is something I want to live my life by. It is a promise from God and so he will honor it, as I believe he is faithful to everything he says. If I do that ad God honors it, then all manner of things could happen in my life, which I am really excited about! Anyway I’ve said enough.

Kindest Regards,

Aaron Rudduck
aaronrudduck@hotmail.com

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Dear Daniel

Have you ever seen the series called the Atheism tapes by Jonathan Miller? Particularly the interviews with the later American playwright Arthur Miller and the Cambridge theologian Denys Turner – perhaps you could look for these on You Tube – the only real purpose of You Tube amongst the plethora of garbage that also exists there. The idea of philosophy as a companion to any form of religious faith – I believe are intertwined. Is it harder to be a card carrying atheist than an open minded agnostic – leaving atheism for the moment to one side. What do atheists deny in reality? Or do they simply sidestep a question that needs to be asked. Now do not mistake this idea as an intellectual concept because it isn’t – it is simply straight forward logic and reason. We all use these every day of our lives often as second nature. You presumably decided to leave the RF’s because clearly you never felt that you belonged there. That is clearly logically and perfect understandable. Arguing for or against the bible’s truthfulness is a pointless exercise and leads nowhere and this site admirably demonstrates this. In my humble view Christianity should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable!

michael.angrave@gmail.com

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The problem with not pursuing God WILTRF, is that we are all going to meet Him one day.

Everyone will meet Him at either the first or second resurrection. And all this religion debate won’t matter at that stage.

There will be many that will literally be cast into never ending fire at the second resurrection.

I didn’t make the rules. That is the God we are dealing with. It is very much in our best interest to do what he says, which in a nutshell is a combination of doing what the bible says and walking by faith.

You WILL meet him one day. Start living for God. That is the only option. And you will find that He will give you a better life than you could ever give yourself, at least that’s what I found.

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hahaha! I genuinely laughed with that last question WILTRF… Its a good question though isn’t it. I’m going to ask a few questions of my own now. If I was to be brought up in a different society that teaches and believes in Islam then I most likely wouldn’t be asking, preaching, displaying my thoughts and ideas on this website. If you can so easily ask that question to me, then I ask it back… why are you not a muslim?

I know that me, now, this day and age I could not believe in a God who only wants us to dwell with the rich people and despise the poor. Mohamed only dwelt with rich people. Jesus on the other hand was all about giving to the poor and helping the sick and maimed. To which would you rather devote your life? this I ask again but also put a spin on it… What if you were a totally destitute human being with nothing, which would you believe on? on Jesus or on Mohamed? I know which one I would choose, because I know the feeling of joy that I get when I see a broken person, in spirit and in physical demeanor and in riches restored to a respectable position within society. I have seen sick people healed, I have see situations turned on their heads without any form of hope or justice into something that gives peace to that brokenhearted person. There is one thing that I know I can stand on, and that is God and his promises, for they have seen me through the hardest times in my life. To what can the people of the Muslim faith stand on? If you have knowledge in this area then tell me?

I think you are a bit guilty of asking too many question for any one person to respond with any depth otherwise their post would be another entire website altogether. But in saying that there is no reason why some of your major questions can’t be answered from the scriptures and through logic. But again in saying that I can only go from what I believe in to be true and you know from your last comment of what I talk of. You know that my faith is in God and I believe whole heartedly on his teachings in his scriptures and what the Holy Spirit has to teach me personally. If you think that is something so far fetched that you think I’m a moron well then nothing of what i say to you to answer any of these questions that you have, will have any affect or have any sway on your heart or your mind.

God works within his children, his people for reason that I know in part, but then in saying that, I don’t know what he ultimately has planned for me in his “grand scheme of things”. This is why I say that we are not supposed to understand God. You know the scripture that says :

Isa 55:8 ¶ For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The problem here is WILTRF that you don’t believe in what the Bible has to say anymore so why do you even argue with it in the first place? If you are so able to dictate conversations and discussions here on this website (because you kinda started the discussion with the site in the first place) and say you don’t believe the Bible is the “infallible word of God”, but still use it as a means for argument and use scripture on people… then whats the point? Do you try to unsettle more people with their Life/Walk with God? or are you honestly seeking out the truth? If you’re honestly seeking out the truth then when you find it, it will set you free from whatever prison your mind is in at the moment.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

And I honestly believe that nobody can show you the truth until you realise it for yourself. I call it personal revelation myself, but in essence what that personal revelation is, is the very center of the question of what truth is! “Truth” is whatever you want it to be… until someone shows you something that makes sense but totally disproves your own idea of what you believe “truth” to be. But then that “truth” can then be counteracted by someone else’s concept again! It challenges your mind and your soul until you then believe in that persons “truth” and concepts. So in essence “truth” becomes a confusion so terrible and frighteningly discolored that the question then arises… what is truth? Again I state that scripture :

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Its funny how all these wonderful sayings these days that are true and make so much sense logically are from the scriptures… Proverbs is full of them! So what I believe “truth” to be is something that rings so loudly and sings to your spirit and your heart so strongly that it gives you the ability to love all people (enemies included), to be joyful, to have peace in your life, to have all patience, to not be severe or harmful to anything, to exceed in all things moral, to be humble in the face of danger, to have self restraint in things that you desire and to have all confidence in the truth that you have found.

If you look at that last point, “to have all confidence in the truth that you have found”, what does it sound like? To me it sounds like faith… but if you look at all those points, they are exactly who Jesus was… and if you look at all those points again you will notice that they are the “fruits of the spirit”. This was the very reason why he came in the first place, as you know and you’ve been taught your many years in Revival Fellowship… So that he could give us the Holy Spirit, the comforter, the helper, the teacher of Gods wisdom and they are all scriptural titles that God has given the spirit! What I’m trying to say is I believe the Spirit is key to the truth that sets you free, that helps you see all the things behind what Jesus did for us, but that key can only be used through what I’ve said to you before and that is “Faith”.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In all honesty though I believe you will not see this or care to think about it too much. I hope I’m wrong in this part but it is pointless to go on this “merry go round”. We should meet up for coffee or something and discuss things on these matters. To that, what say thee WILTRF though Son of David? haha that has a nice ring to it actually. You know where to find me

Kind regards,

Aaron Rudduck

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Dear “Anonymous” this is Michael – if anyone was in difficulties spiritually your rambling diatribe wouldn’t convince or assist anyone not even a beggar in the gutter or a repentant prostitute in a brothel! Just the usual chapter and verse doctrines. It is all so boring and pointless. I do not believe this site is about being faithless at all, though I must confess I am not sure what it’s purpose is exactly. He is questioning and I would never fault that exploration at any time. But you are wrong to be so dogmatic about this issue. All you are doing is towing the organised party line and not very convincingly or cogently. How much experience of life do you have dear “Anonymous”? You remind me of the mental approach of the Pharisees! All dogma but no understanding!

michael.angrave@gmail.com
South Western France

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I can’t believe that you just stated “The Bible defines faith as hoping something is true without evidence” … are you serious? re-read the verse, or do you want me to explain it? I say this because once again you have failed to see the whole passage of scripture and just focused solely on the one scripture you challenge. If you are going to read a book and criticise it then look at the whole passage before you question it. Also you would know that some sayings in the scriptures are hard to understand because of the English that is used. When this happens then look to the original translations and pull it apart… its that simple, or look to a translation that you can understand. In this case it is not necessary because the writer of the book (Paul) goes on to describe what he says and gives examples. What better proof of what faith is than with clear examples (almost like a science project wouldn’t you agree?)

Hebrews 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Then he clearly states the answers to your problem area of understanding what faith is, in verse 3 :

Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I believe this is also a statement at people who do not believe in creation. Now when he says “Word of God you need to understand these 2 scriptures in 1 John 5 and the Gospel of John 1:1-15 also :

1 John 5:6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

… a verse in the gospel of John in particular verse 14, states that Jesus is one with God and the word.

John 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Getting back to the explanation of Faith which you have probably heard many times because it was a talk given regularly at RF without the proper substance for yourself, and for me also (because they were boring) to fully understand. The next few verses state things that people were able to do through Faith. Faith in the God who they knew without a shadow of a doubt that would answer them. Even though they couldn’t see him they knew he would answer. Its the same God who we deal with today. You know the scripture and song that says “Faith turns the night into the day” because everyone on this planet who has knowledge of the earth, knows that the earth spins and has to keep spinning for life to exist, and now because they know this they can predict the time the sun will rise and fall. They have this knowledge about the sun that these same people had about their God. If you could fathom that understanding you could move mountains if you wanted to, and Jesus himself states this! You clearly misunderstood what the verse said because you didn’t study it.

“Can you prove that the archangel Gabriel did not visit Muhammad in his cave?” I can prove to you that Gabriel wasn’t an archangel and therefore he didn’t visit Muhammad in this cave that you speak of. If you profess to know so much about scripture and about other mysteries, then you would’ve known this already. In fact I throw the challenge out there to anyone willing to find me a passage of scripture stating that Gabriel is an archangel!!! Because it can’t be done… the Bible doesn’t say he is one… it only says hes a messenger. The fact that you stated this proves that you haven’t done your research properly or maybe your own faith (if I may use the word) is misplaced? maybe you backed the wrong side? I say this to you because all you have done is produce things that lack substance, only questions and 1-2 verse statements without the proper research behind it. Your statement from this “recommended book” proves this, as it doesn’t have the correct information and you failed to see this.

If you are so willing to declare the Bible as false because you don’t agree with the way God does things when he clearly states that his thoughts are greater than ours since he created the whole universe in the first place, then why don’t you do it to other books such as this one that you stated to us? I saw from that 1 discrepancy that it was false because its taken a commonly known misconception as “gospel” without the writer doing his proper research, including yourself.

The name Gabriel means “messenger of God”, but it doesn’t say anything of him being an archangel. The Bible clearly states that Michael is the only archangel and his name means “like God”. I can give you many scriptures on Angels as I have some knowledge on the subject through study.

What am I trying to get at here? Study I think is the key, but then again you have to understand the concept of Faith to be able to see and understand properly what God says in his scriptures, which I can see is something you lacked the whole time of those 9 years where you questioned practically everything.

Here is the difference between you and me… when I walked away from God I still knew there was a God because I couldn’t deny the things which I’d seen in Papua New Guinea… A man who was lame walked out of the water after he was baptised… he was also deaf and dumb (couldn’t speak) but I spoke with him after… and the most incredible thing that blew me away was the first audible words he spoke were in tongues in praise to his God! but….. nevertheless I still walked away from the RF and God because I didn’t want to be restricted by anyone or anything. Even after I turned my back on him he still came to my rescue after years of brokenhearted and he also stopped me from beating my mother up when all I wanted to do is hit her. I couldn’t walk a step more towards her because the Holy Spirit was screaming at me in my head “This is your mother! How dare you! what the hell do you think you are doing!” … Even after I say all this you won’t understand because your heart is hardened to the things of God when all he wants to do is love you. You were hardened by improper teaching as I was, but all he wants to do is love you but you force him away and put up more walls by trying to disprove his gospel more and more…. but the funny thing is that God has already stated :

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Doesn’t matter what you try to do, to take away from the word of God or to add to it like you tried to do with your theory on faith, God will preserve his word will raise up more people to preach his gospel faster than you can disprove it. How many people who have tried to disprove it before without any previous knowledge on it have been converted to Christianity because of their studies? I don’t know the number because all I know are the “famous” cases, but not the real life cases. Thousands upon thousands I would say! And they try to disprove it by carbon dating etc. and then they bring up their theories and then they find another scroll saying the same thing but its older by a thousand years than the first ones they found… All I’m saying is if you want to put up a site and say its not “bitter ramblings” then don’t state the church name you came from and all the issues you had with it! What you’ve done is by definition “driven by bitterness”, and I truly believe that your Faith in God has been blinded by it.

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

Read the before and after if you wish of that verse to study it, in fact I encourage it because you have been defiled by your bitterness. I pray that you see differently in the future brother. It saddens me to know that this is the result of 9 years of “study” as you say, but without substance/faith, and then finally turning your back on God and becoming Agnostic.

Love and peace and hope for you my brother, I pray it this night!

Kindest Regards,

Aaron Rudduck,

aaronrudduck@hotmail.com

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Ryan from what you said in your last paragraph, you obviously don’t understand what the definition is that you wrote here and quoted from Oxford dictionary.

It’s not just “hoping something is true without seeing evidence” Ryan, it is KNOWING in the heart to the extent where you don’t need to see something to believe it. That And that is essentially what my relationship is with God… I have faith in God because I know he is there and I can’t see him, but the evidence of this belief or knowledge, is that he has manifested himself in my life through the Holy Spirit and convicted me, to the point where I don’t doubt at all that he is in my life and working in my life.

what sort of hope do you have Ryan? what sort do you refer to here in this statement? what way do you think this statement uses the word hope? Is it a “know so” hope or is it a “hope so” hope?

Regards,

Aaron Rudduck

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